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 New Empire book comparison and thoughts.

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Deadboytat2
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PostSubject: New Empire book comparison and thoughts.    Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:26 pm

Ok so I had a few days now to write out lists and compare things to the old book and here is my thoughts on the new book Ill take it step by step and unit by unit.

Karl Franz - Ok so in the last edition this guy was a badass and that has not changed. If anything he is slightly better then before as his points have gone down by 10. ( From 350 to 340) his stat line is the same the only things they changed with him is that the silver seal went from magic resist 3 to magic resist 2. The other really big and cool change is that his inspiring presence went from 18" to 24" if he is mounted on death claw. That can really help the army as he is now the only way to have leadership 10 in the army and if he is mounted he can stay in range of the troops even if he charges. Death claw Also changed quite a bit as his stat line got alot better. Went STR 5 to STR 6 wound 4 to wound 5 and attacks 4 to attacks 5. Making him one of the better character mounts in the game for a small 215 points. His points cost droped from 225 thats a good 10 points. Basically when all is said and done Karl comes to 555 points doping down from 575. that puts him at just 5 points over the min for 2200 games. ( where most of the tournaments hah been played at recently. ) So you cant really use him unless the tournament is sticking to the old points of 2250 or higher. Too bad as Id like to finally get to use him one of these days.

Kurt Helborg - Well he has not changed really except that his BS skill went from a 3 to a 6. But he dose not have a ranged weapon so who cares. He also no longer requires Reiksguard in the army to play with him even though they have a actual unit entry now. But that is keeping with the trend of the newer dex's of droping unit restrictions. He is 5 points cheaper as well going from 325 to 320. He dose make a unit of Reiksguard knights immune to psychology as long as he is with the unit and that can be useful. Over all though I think there is more useful things in the army and unless you are making a knight army I do not see a reason to include him.

Balthasar gelt - from 400 to 360. that is pretty good as he was fairly pricy before and Honestly of all the characters he is the best as far as price and what you get. He is still a loremaster for lore of metal. and his stat line looks pretty much the same. The things they really changed with him is he no longer throws potions of acid at people. ( SOOO sad about this.) His staff also no longer ignores miscasts. But this was kinda a hindrance to him in the new edition of the rules as they made irresistible force tied in with miscasting. and his old rules had him not cast completely so you basically lost a hole turn and the dice you threw at that spell. Now his staff just adds +2 to the casting. Also his amulet of sea gold scales with the other army. So before when it just gave you magic resist 1 now it gives you magic res 2 if there are 2 enemy wizards and three if there are three to a maximum of 3. Pretty good when you consider he also has a 3+ ward save from shooting attacks. So if you try and fire a magic shooting attack at him your looking at a 1+ ward save. So he is free to fly around the board shooting the shit out of your army with magic and leaving you pretty much no good option to deal with him. 360 points is also not too bad a cost for him everything considered. I think he is the best character in the codex for over all use. ( if you like magic that is )

Volkmar the Grim - droped from 360 ( mounted on the war alter ) to 190 now on foot with the option of putting him on the war alter. He has a 5+ regen save and hits at str 6 when he is on the war alter. but he loses that on foot. There is really no reason at all to not put him on the war alter though as the war alter is one of the best units in the army with its new rules. Honestly hes not that good costing about 340 points and a normal arch lector is only 250. and if you give a normal arch lector the mace of helstrum ( +2 str and a single str 10 hit that dose d3 wounds ) and full plate then that only costs 304 points still quite a bit cheaper then Volkmar. I do not see people really using him unless they really want to play with the model he is just not that good.

Marius Leitdorf- 220 points. This guy is kinda cool. Hes a little more expensive then a normal General of the empire but he dose have the advantage of having a really cool model. And he has the Mad count rule. IF you make a general of the empire and give him all the same stuff that Marius has you will end up at 213 points. So you get Marius crazy rules for 7 points more then you would normally get. The rule works like this. start of every turn make a leadership check on 3d6 and discard the lowest. If he passes then he behaves himself and everything is fine. If not then roll a d6 and chct his madness chart. on a 1 hes stupid for the turn, on a 2 he ruined his favorite shirt and gose into a berserk rage and gets the frenzy rule and can not lose it, on a 3 hes paranoid and attacks on random model in base combat, on a 4 he talks to his horse and realises the army needs help! every unit in 12" may make a free reform and then move shoot and charge as normal; on a 5 he insults the closest enemy character and they get hatred Marius for the rest of the game and on a 6 he gets insane Bravado and gets frenzy and stubborn but must accept any challenge. Honestly he is really cool not necessarily something that will win you games but will be alot of fun to make a army around and be fluffy with.

General of the empire - not alot of changes here except they increased the points by about 15 going from 80 to 95 points. All the same stats and options as before but now they added the hold the line rule. This is vary cool as it gives any unit that includes a general or a captain of the empire the lizard man roll three dice and keep the two lowest rule. This can really make a unit of state troops un breakable with them in it. But I think its better to take the cheaper captains and not the generals on the hole for this rule as there are better lords choices to choose from. The only other thing of note is that griffons droped about 30 points. So if you want to ride a griffon it only costs 170 points now not 200. That's kinda cool.

Battle Wizard lord- went from 165 to 165 same as before in every other reguard except that they now have more things they can ride into battle then they did before depending on what school you chose to take. If they are Heavens they can ride the celestial Hurcanum into battle for 125 points. ( 5 points cheaper then the thing is when you take it as a rare choice.) and if lore of light is chosen then they can ride a Luminark of Hysh into battle for 120 points. If lore of beasts is chosen they can ride a griffon into battle for 170 points, But honestly seems like a waste for this lore as his big bad spell turns him into a monster. And if you want a flying wizard there are other ways to get a good one. See above at the Balthazar Gelt post.

Arch lector - Went down in points from 125 to 100, this on top of the changes to the war alters ( Including the new look ) have made these guys the best deal in the lord choice section. Same stat line as before that has not changes. Ok so first the bad before I get to the good. Arch lectors and warrior priests no longer give you free dispell dice. This sucks I really used to count on these in the old book. But looking back although the dice really helped me most of the time when someone really wanted to get a spell off they but 6 dice into that spell and got a irresistible force so the extra dice did not help. The times where it really helped were when they rolled low for the winds of magic and I had more dispell dice then they had casting dice. The other bad part at least for my personal army is that they no longer make flagellant's a core choice.

Now onto the overall good Battle prayers for the Arch lector and the warrior Priests lost a few prayers but gained a hole lot more. they lost armor of contempt, healing hand, and unbending righteousness. But in return they get the improved hammer of Sigmar now instead of just being cast on the warrior priest himself it is cast on his hole unit. for those that do not know this allows all models in the unit to re-roll failed to hit rolls in the close combat phase. I guess it also lost the re-roll to hit but considering he makes the hole unit have hatred its a wash. He gained the new spell shield of faith, this give all models in his unit a 5+ ward save in close combat for untill his next magi phase. Pretty good Id say sure he lost a personal 4+ ward save but giving his hole unit a 5+ is going to save alot more points of guys on the table. And then Soul fire It still dose the burning doom on all enemy models in base contact with the priest but Now it also gives the hole unit flaming attacks. At this point I bet your wondering how this is better then the old prayers. Well let me set your mind at ease here and tell you. They are no longer limited to how many they can attempt to cast per round. That is right folks they can try and cast all three of them if you want. They are also power level three so you have a good chance to get these off with just one dice. O yeah and for those of you that play with attachments These spells also effect any attachment units that are within 3" of there parent unit. O yeah and Arch lectors and warrior priests can now channel dispell and magic dice like normal wizards. So completely losing the dispell dice is not a total was as now you have a chance to get extra casting dice on your turn.

Ok and now onto the War Alter. This baby is going to be a stable of the empire IMO ok so still a chariot and still has the same stat line here is where the changes start to happen though. It lost the 2 magic res but kept the 4+ ward save. It also went up in points by 50 Ouch that dose hurt a little and it can no longer cast any spell from the lore of light it can only cast Banishment. Ok so your wondering where dose this get good. Well Ill tell you, It now gives all friendly units withen 6" hatred pretty good right. now you do not have to sacrifice your units hatred for putting the lector on a war alter. On top of that and this is the real reason I like it so much is that it give all units within 6" the battle prayers that the Arch lector gets off. This is huge!! and I think will really help the other things they did in this book that suck. Also and this is really just a after thought for this pretty good unit But it is now stubborn as well. So when you flank charge with this guy hes not going anywhere. They also have a 10pt upgrade that makes them cause terror.

Over all my Favorite lord choice out of the bunch. Except for maybe Balthazar.

Ludwig Schwarhelm - lets see he went from 220 points to 185 points. But it is easy to see why. His stat line is the same but he lost the reason to take him and that was the awesome war banner he had. It used to give all units within 12" +1 combat res ontop of it being a BSB. Now all it is is a BSB with a 18" ranges instead of a 12" range. Id also like to mention that he is not a captain of the empire so he dose not have the awesome hold the line rule. So overall one of the biggest nerfs and let downs in the hole book. To bad as the model is really cool.

Luthor Huss - went from 180 to 155. Still has the same stat line except they added one more BS ( I have no idea why they keep doing this in the book with characters that have no ranged weapon ) still has a 4+ ward save and all the same stuff that a normal Battle priest has except that he geake one more prayer that gives his unit Stubborn. He lost his fear causing effect and that kinda sucks but he gained a once per gain boost that gives him d3 to his weapon skill, str, toughness and attacks for a turn. That can make him kind of a blender with his great weapon as he could go up to a possible str 8 with 5 attacks that re-roll hits and if he got a prayer of also re-roll to wound. Honestly Hes kinda fantastic.

Markus Wulfheart - 140 points hes new in this dex and has a cool model. He has WS and BS 5 with str 4 and tough 4 2 wounds and 3 attacks with a LD 8. Overall pretty good stats, He has hatred monsters Immune to Psychology, scouts and Monster hunter. This is a new rule that allows him to re-roll all failed to hit rolls when shooting monster's. and when targeting characters riding a monster he always hits the Monster. He also has the Amber bow. That has a 30" range with str 3. It always wounds Monsters on a 4+ though and dose d3 wounds. So this guy is really good at what he dose. And that is sneaking up and shooting evil critters dead. He can also take a unit of his hand picked Monster hunters that are huntsmen that get Immune to Psychology and Monster hunter as well. So over kinda cool but I think hes kinda pricy for what he dose. I bought the model so I will be playing with him at some point and will have more on him after I get a few games with him.

Captains of the empire - Ok same Stat line as before and they went up by about 10 points, from 50 to 60. But these guys should be a auto include as a BSB. with there Hold the line rule on-top of the BSB re-roll to failed leadership rule they are pretty much amazing. If you are not running one go get one.

Battle wizard- same points and stats as before They are good. Not really much to say as they are exactly the same.

Warrior priest - I already talked about how much I like these guys so I wont go into it any more but they have the same stats as before. They did drop in price from 90 to 65 so if you were not considering them after my long talk about them already maybe the fact that they are 25 points cheaper will change your mind.

Master Engineer - same price and stats as before but they did make some good changes to them in terms of now they can use the BS and re-roll on any of the guns of the empire so the Volley gun and the Rocket launcher get a nice little boost. They also gave him a cool look out sir roll as long as he is within 3" of a war machine. Petty ok if you ask me. They also did some changes to the war gear he can take. They increased the range of the grenade launching blunderbuss by 2", and the repeater pistol by 4". Everything eles is pretty much the same from what I can see.

Witch hunters - I have to say before anything that I love these guys from a fluff standpoint. So Im going to show heavy favoritism with them because I want to love them. That being said lets take a look. they are a reasonable 50 points with a stat line that is pretty good for fantasy with 4's across the board except they have 2 wounds and 2 attacks. They have a good couple of rules that make them really good though Like accusation, this lets them target a enemy character and this gives him re-rolls to hit in close combat and the killing blow special rule on his target even from shooting attacks. He also gets the sniper special rule and can single his target out from shooting. He gets the grim resolve rule that makes him and his hole unit treat terror like a fear test and he himself will never fail a fear test even if his unit did fail. And he gets the tools of judgement rule, this makes it so that if he is attacking undead, wizards or demons he gets to re-roll all his failed to wound rolls. add on top of these pretty awesome rules the fact that he can also take 50pts in magic items and you get a pretty good character killer. He wont kill the bigger Demon lords but he will do some good damage. he also has options to take a great weapon and a brace of pistols so he is a fairly well rounded hero choice. O yeah I forgot to mention that he also has a magic resist 2 so he gives his unit a 5+ ward save verses magic effect. Awesome.

Ok here is where we get into the kinda suck of the book IMO

Halberdier's - same stats as before but now they cost 6 points up from 5 points. also raised the points on all of the unit upgrades Musician, Sergent, and standard up to 10 points a pop. This seems to be the standard with all the units that can take a full command not so all the units will cost 30 points to get a full command. This costs 10 points more then it used too as it used to be 20 points to get the full command.

Spearmen - same stats and same points. this is one of the only units to stay in the same points range. Again 30 point full command up from 20. I already played with 40 of them before the new book came out and as they are our chest unit I can see a hole lot more people switching too them.

Swards men- From 6 points to 7 points. again same stat line but they are only paying 5 points more for there FC. This point uprage is the the hardest one for people to take I think as they were the most popular unit and alot of the arguments for not taking spear men were that you got 1ws and a shield for the same points as a spear men when you gave them a shield. Now I guess GW wanted to make it more fair and make you pay the extra 1 point per model to get that 1 WS.

Crossbow men- up from 8 to 9 points again it costs 30 points for a FC but really Im not sure anyone every bought these in the first place as most people ran min 10 man units all over the place I think.

Hand gunners - same as crossbow men went from 8 to 9 points and there marksmen upgrades changed. a brace of pistols now costs 5 points up from free. The long rifle is still the same at 20 points and the they did drop the repeater pistol down to 10 points from 15 points. Again the FC is 10 points up from where it was before.

Archers - went from 8 to 7 points holy cow right a points drop is crazy! but they are still just archers and still skirmished so not sure if people will take them over Handgunners and crosbowmen. Sad too as I like the models.

Free company - looks like they went up from 5 to 6 points and again a 30 point FC. Sad as they are not worth more then 5 IMO as two hand weapons dose not make up for the lack of light armor.

Knightly orders - From 23 points to 22 points. its good that they moved there points down as you do not see as much cav in 8th ed as you used too. also upgrading them to inner circle knights dose not move them out the core units section anymore and that is also good. still costs 3 points per model to put them there but hey this is really a good change for the unit. They also brought down the cost of a full command for them from 40 points down now to the standard 30 points. With all the same unit upgrades they had before. Except that you can now only have One unit of inner circle knights. O well overall this is a good change and I am tempted to run some in my army now.

Great swords - What can I say they were pretty bad before and hard to take in a list and they did not get any better. Sad because the fluff they have and the models are just awesome. ( And I have a fully painted unit ) They have the same stats as before, I was really looking to see them get one more strength here but no. And they are also up from 10 points too 11 points. This is sad as they should be more like 9 points. O well. FC is 30 points so same as it was before.

Demigryph knights - Ok I know the internets have about 50% of the people out there hating this model and 50% out there loving it. Im on the loving it side. I cant say why other then I think they are cool! so here is that stats for them. They have the upgraded inner circle knight stat line so str 4. They come with barding full plate a shield and a lance. With extra hand weapons. The demigryph causes fear and has armor piercing with a str of 5 toughness of 5, int 4 and 3 attacks with a reasonable 4 ws. They cost 58 points a piece with the standard 30 point FC can take halberds for free and can have a magic banner of upto 50 points. Again a unit I really love so im going to be alot biased when it come to this but I think it will be great on the table top both as a centerpiece and possible a game changer.

Reiksguard knight. They are basically inner circle knights with stubborn for 2 points more. so 27 points a Piece. I like them but I will more most likely never use them.

Huntsmen - these are actually Kinda cool to have. And I want to play with them and try and fit them into my army as some cheap harassment units. they cost 8 points a pop. so 1 more then standard archers but they also get the scouts rule. This makes a min unit of 10 a reasonable 80 points and gives you a option to try and set up on a flank and force march leadership checks and gives you some good options for harassment.

Pistoliers/outriders - same points same stats same everything from what I can tell. They were good back in the old book they are good now. min 5 man outrider units are pretty good. Again the only real thing they changed is they now have the same standard full command points costs. so spending 2 and 3 points more for those musicians then you used too. o well spilled milk and all that.

Great cannons.- Still a cannon now 20 points more this is vary sad because with all the other points increases it just means its that much harder to get the stuff we need to win into the lists.

Mortar - WOW did this get hit with the suck stick. Not only is it 25 points more expensive but it also droped from STR 3 to STR 2 I guess everything has the d3 wounds rule. But it also lost it own misfire chart and now has the standard misfire chart. On top of being 25 more points its going to be hard to warrant this as a good choice when building a army.

Flagellants - up from 10 to 12 points a pop. Sad sad day as i used to love this unit alot. Same stats and same unbreakable unit but les effective. Now they take d6 str 3 hits for the end is nigh so there is a chance to lose less guys or none at all. if you lose 1 guy you get to re-roll hits 2 or 3 guys you get re-rolls to hit and to wound and if you lose 4+ guys you also get +1 toughness. The problem is that now you HAVE to make the roll. Were as before it was a choice. So now when you are down to the wire with three guys left and still tieing that unit up you cant stop killing your own unit. With the fact they can no longer be troop choices and there points increase im going to have a hard time justifing putting them in my army. ( Again suck as I have a fully painted and converted unit. ) The one saving grace here is that they can now be taken in larger units. no longer 10 to 30. and they are now special as apposed to rare.

Helblaster Volley gun - Up from 110 points to 120 points. So in line with the great cannon. now that they cost the same points you might accually see more of these. They also changes the rules around quite a bit for these guys. Now you roll three artillery dice same as before but now when you get a misfire all that happens is that you half the shots rolled. This is huge as it means this gun will be shooting alot more over all. IF you roll two misfires on the artillery dice roll on the black powder mishap chart. And if you roll three you get all thirty shots and it explodes. I really do see this being alot better then it was and shooting alot more as normally I only ever rolled one misfire. Now that is not the end of the world it just has les shots

Helblaster rocket launcher - up from 115 to 120- This also got a little more accurate but it droped from a large blast to a small blast. and from str 5 to str 3. but you might hit a little more with it. so maybe it works out. Now when you fire the thing roll a d3. Thats how many rockets you get. Then pick a point and put the small blast marker there. Then roll a d6 and a scatter dice from that point for each rocket. So it has thw chance of hitting alot more then before but im not likely to use it personally as the str 3 is not enough to put it in the list.

Stream Tank - Wow did this get a over haul and it needed it. IMO the last year or so that I tried to use it it was basically a 300 point point sink that never left the table but never did anything to help me. Its now only 250 points ( awesome right ) and it much more reliably generates steam points. At least on paper. Now you pick a number of points you want to have between 0 and 5. Then you roll a artillery dice and compare it to your current wounds remaining. So on turn one you can not fail this roll unless you roll a mishap. Then if you are over your wounds or roll a mishap roll a d3 and add that number to your steam points and compare it to the new steam point mishap chart. And let me tell you the mishap chart is bad but not all that bad. Unless you hit a 8 the thing dose not explode and some of the things that happen are pretty good in the right situation.

Also it no longer moves 3" for every steam point you spend in movement. Now it moves d6 inches for each steam point. So you have the chance of going alot farther if your stupid lucky with it. But I see using about 3 steam per turn to move so you will on average move about 11 inches. the Cannon is now str 10 up from 8 and multible wounds d6 from d3. So alot better but the distance is determined based on the number of steam you use so 12"/24"/36" for 1 two or 3 steam. And the steam gun is a breath weapon in all regards now that's strength goes up based on the number of steam you use. so 2 for 1 steam 3 for 2 steam and 4 for 3 steam with a cap of 3 steam. and it works like a breath weapon in combat except that you can use it every turn if you have the steam points for it. All in all I like the new rules alot and think it will do alot better and be feared again on the table.

And now the things everyone really wanted to see

The celestial Hurrcanum - 130 points. This bad boy is a chariot with a 5+ armor save. s5 t5 w5 ld 7 movement of 8 ws 3 and 4 attacks ( two horses and 2 acolytes. it gives you +1 magic dice every friendly magic phase and gives all units in 6" +1 to hit in close combat. It also can sling some decent magic with a bound power level 4 spell. Here is the problem though. the spell you cast is random you do not know what you are going to get and alot of them are vary situational. From a 1 causing a slight down pour to a 6 causing a str 8 hit. Its good but I do not like randomness and have a hard time paying for something that is random. Some times you are going to be counting on it to do some something and it is going to let you down. But the passive effects are really vary nice.

Luminark of Hysh - 120 points of bad awesome. same stats as the hurrnamum - but this baby gives you + 1 dispell dice and every unit in 6" gets a 6+ ward save. Ontop of that its innate bound spell has a 36" range is str 8 and acts like a bolt thrower. so penetrates ranks and dose d3 wounds. Now its a bound spell so people can try and stop it with dispell dice but at least with this guy you know what effect you are going to get every turn. Im a big fan. And will build my two kits as Luminarks more then likely.

Ok On to the magic items. These got nerfed but we all knew it was going to happen as that is GWs new MO. Its not that bad to tell you the truth the stuff they kept was good and it could have been much worse.

Runefangs - Same rules as before but now they only cost 85 points not 100. AWESOME so much better then before you can actually play with them if you want too.

Mace of helstrum - Adds +2 str and lets you make a single str 10 d3 wounds roll and gives you flaming attacks from 60 points to 50 pretty good IMO.

Armor of meteoric iron - 50 points. Up from 25 dose the same thing but now gives you a 6+ ward save as well. Im not sure this is a good trade off. And if fact im kind of upset by this but o well.

Helm of the skaven slayer - makes the barer cause fear for 15 points but makes skaven count as having hatred when attacking the owner of this vary spiffy hat. Im ok with this to be honest. I might not use it but its not bad.

The white cloak of Ulric - 50 points enemys are at -1 to hit in combat and grats the barer a 5+ward save going to a 2+ ward save vs flaming attacks. I really like this and considering its the same points as the Meteoric iron I might be hard pressed to chose between the two now as I can get upto a 2+ save on foot and this makes the enemy's hit me less and gives me a better ward save.

Van horstmann's speculum. Same as before but now you have to use it not you may use it. Im sad about this and will prolly not be taking it anymore on anything other then a wizard. The arch lector mace of helstrum combo is gone because sometimes they are the ones with the better stats and you just cant be sure. But then again it might still be awsome and im giving it a bad rap. I will have to play with it to know for sure.

Ring of volans - not only did this get a 10 point upgrade it also sucks way more as it is a once per game effect now. Prolly will not be seeing too many of these in lists anymore.

Griffon banner - 10 more points then before but now it just doubles the rank bonus with no cap. so if you have 5 this banner will gie you 10. Pretty good id say. The downside is you can never peruse a fleeing enemy you break in combat.

Steel standard - This is the one you will be seeing all the time I think for 35 points you can re-roll and 1s when determining a charge distance and you ignore any movement penalty's for barding. Its really a Steal eh eh get it?

Ok so over all there is some good stuff and bad stuff. I think that in the long run the changes will see empire players playing alot more aggressively then they did before. I still think they should have gotten a points drop in alot more areas of the book like core choices and great swords. But it is not all that bad and I think you will see some strong lists come from this book in the months to come.


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Last edited by Deadboytat2 on Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: New Empire book comparison and thoughts.    Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:17 pm

Why isn't this a front page article? Razz Razz Razz Razz

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PostSubject: Re: New Empire book comparison and thoughts.    Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:22 pm

Great article though.

Pay heed, readers. If you want Empire knowledge, this is the dude to listen to.

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PostSubject: Re: New Empire book comparison and thoughts.    Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:06 pm

Well thanks dude I like the confidence you have in me and my opinions. I have a few lists written up that I want to try but they will have to wait till after the 40k league I am running with Matt at the Westminster store. I have about three lists that I would like to give a go all at 2200 points and that will give me a real overview of the new book.

Also Super good news because looking at the luminark and the Hurcanium Closely it looks like you can magnetize it in two or three spots to get it to swap between the two models. So each kit should let you play with both models if you take your time building it to do that. Ill Post up some shots of how I do it in a few months again when the 40k league is over.

It looks like I will be painting fantasy models for the rest of the year though as I plan to add two of every new kit except the griffon models ( im only adding one of those ) two my army. And Im going to add another 40 swords men with two more Helblaster volley guns. Yup got my work cut out for me. Also two witch hunter models. ganna be a long year of painting green and tan lol.

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PostSubject: Re: New Empire book comparison and thoughts.    

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New Empire book comparison and thoughts.
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